Australia's Foreign Minister reflects on modern Indonesia
Updated
Australia's Foreign minister Stephen Smith says ties with Indonesia are now so strong, that the most difficult issues can be discussed without jeopardising the entire relationship. Mr Smith says for the first time, the visit has provided Australians with a reflection of modern democratic Indonesia.
Presenter: Linda Mottram
Speakers: Stephen Smith, Australian Foreign Minister.
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SMITH: In the course of the last couple of days we've had conversations which have ranged across capital punishment and the Bali Nine, the Balibo Five, people smuggling; a range of other things which in the past if they'd been discussed or been made public would have rocked the relationship. Now they are issues that we manage and they're treated very much as business as usual. I think the third fundamental thing we're seeing is the emergence of Indonesia as an international influence. All of these things I think have come together and been crystallised in a most successful visit by the Indonesian President.
MOTTRAM: The President himself in his speech to the parliament yesterday talked about continuing ill-informed stereotypes on both sides. And most Indonesianists in Australia seem to agree that that is actually a core issue, those people to people issues, how do you deal with that?
SMITH: I think this is an area where we do need to try and make some progress. Foreign Minister Natalegawa and I when we had our formal meeting earlier in the week agreed that we would do a comprehensive review of all of the people to people aspects of the relationship. And they are considerable; cultural, language, educational, some sporting. But we've got a very good relationship nation to nation, a very good relationship prime minister-president, minister to ministers, and officials to officials. We know each other, we understand each other, it's that maturity that you referred to earlier. But there's a lag, the Australian people don't fully appreciate the modern Indonesia and the Indonesian people don't fully appreciate the modern Australia, and that's where I think we do need to do some work.
MOTTRAM: I mean SBY himself said this is a relationship that holds a lot of good for us if we manage it well, but cautioned that that can easily be lost?
SMITH: Well I think the only danger to a relationship where we have it now is either surprise where something occurs which surprises and knocks us off our balance, or, and I think this is much more likely, complacency. And we're constantly looking at more things that we can do.
MOTTRAM: On those difficult issues that you've mentioned, to what extent do you feel that the Australian public has come along with you on the position that look we can now have a mature discussion even about the hard stuff, because I mean the reality is that when SBY was speaking in the parliament yesterday there were West Papuan activists out the front making a range of demands that we're very familiar with. At the same time as the Indonesian President was saying well Papua is a serious issue for us and putting it out there as an issue of Indonesian nationalism. I mean there are disjoints there aren't there?
SMITH: Well there will always be differing views whether its different views expressed by individual Australians or individual Indonesians. On West Papua one of the I think trappings of the relationship which has helped setup the modern relationship has been the signing of the Lombok treaty. That respects the territorial integrity of Indonesia, including over Papua and West Papua. That gave Indonesia a lot of comfort, but at the same time what we saw the President do and his government do was to say we can make improvements in Papua and West Papua, we can have sensible autonomy for various decision making, and we can look to improvements in economic and social conditions, including the way in which people are treated so far as their right to express a view is concerned. So we think that Indonesia has made progress on that front, but part of the strength now of Indonesia is that there is freedom of media and political expression. They have a robust parliament. So they're a robust society as we are a robust society, and we as a government, as a parliament don't try and suppress the expression of individual views, on the contrary, we encourage it as part of our system. And you're seeing that reflected in the modern Indonesia as well.
MOTTRAM: Still Indonesia has some way to go, for example its military is not yet entirely reformed?
SMITH: Well I think you've made a very good point with which I agree with and also Indonesia agrees with, which is no one's claiming victory at this point in time. It's a work in progress. We think substantial improvement has been made, and I think the good thing is that whether it's been Foreign Minister Hassan Wirajuda or Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa, they are both committed as foreign ministers reflecting the views of the President, both committed to not just institutionalising the trappings of democracy, but also seeking to institutionalise things that you and I would regard as individual civil liberties or freedoms.
MOTTRAM: And on the Australian headline issue of people smuggling we've seen an agreement to a new framework, we don't have all those details in public and we've certainly seen the Indonesian President come to the party as it were in terms of trying to satisfy Australian demands. But it's not a headline issue in Indonesia is it?
SMITH: Well it's not an Australian demand, Indonesia and Australia both understand that the only way we can deal with large scale people movement is by working together, not just bilaterally but regionally. That's why Australia and Indonesia co-sponsored the establishment of the Bali process, that's the first point. Secondly, the agreement that we had struck people should not expect that this agreement will be made public because it goes very much to operational matters about prevention and disruption, the source of things which would only advantage people smugglers if it became public. But that's also done under the framework of the Bali process and the framework of the Lombok Treaty. I think there's another point which needs to be made, which is neither Australia nor Indonesia regard the new framework document that we have agreed between ourselves as in any way being a silver bullet or a magic solution, this will still be a very difficult issue for the foreseeable future.
